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 Post subject: pigpatch eh?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:08 pm 
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I see the overall train of thought here is "You're over here because you want to be here??"

Heh, Tony said Snurk.... that's never a good sign.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:19 pm 
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Well he snurked because he's annoyed at another minigun bein' all FUBAR. He'll have to use an M-60 if they have to send it out for repair and don't have a spare.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:56 pm 
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...which is what a human door gunner would be using anyway, if I remember correctly. Manhandling a minigun? Tony is STRONG.

It's nothing about anything, I guess, but... "They all blend together after a while." Given what we know about Tony Ray, that sounds like the theme song for his life.

It doesn't surprise me that people get trained for the military, go through hells they could never describe, come home, and fall into crime and murder. When I stop and think about it, it amazes me that most people can go through all that and NOT come back completely ruined. Turning on that killing side, turning it off again when the battle is over, turning it on the next day, going home and turning it off forever, with the killer-training still inside. What strength of spirit that must take.

Of course, in Tony's case, there's a problem with that "forever" part.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:48 am 
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Havoc wrote:
...which is what a human door gunner would be using anyway, if I remember correctly. Manhandling a minigun? Tony is STRONG.


Yes he is, that's why he got tapped to be trained on one.
And yes the M-60 was used a lot as a door gun.
But, later in the war, there were quite a few mini-guns poking out them doors too.
Also all that ammo it eats, is heavy, so you need strong guys to load the ammo containers.
Did you notice how Mulefoot carries his 'baby'?
It is what got him out of being a 'digger' for his tour of duty. :(
GE, brings good things to life. :D

Havoc wrote:
Turning on that killing side, turning it off again when the battle is over, turning it on the next day, going home and turning it off forever, with the killer-training still inside. What strength of spirit that must take.


Remember, that's the mistake that Jen made, assuming that the army is what caused Mulefoot to 'turn' homicidal.
The pig was very forceful in 'explaining' it to her. :roll:

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Last edited by Ramseys on Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:49 am 
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a) You're right abou tthe minigun. The few 'slicks' which were made into impromptu gunships with the gatling guns normally had 'inhibitor' cards fitted to the electronics which slowed the rate of fire down substantially. The problem was the amount of ammunition they burn through - the helicopter has a p[roblem with the sheer weight of it. The gunships - DC-3s and AC-130s - were capable of hauling a lot more weight.

b) Actually, most people who went and got shot at came home pure pacifists. Once is usually sufficient. The Billy - Bad - Asses tend to be rear echelon folks, not grunts from the jungles/swamps/whatever. Mauldin addressed this syndrome in an excellent cartoon, which he included in Up Front. Willie and Joe are sitting in a trattoria with a bottle and an obnviously angry troop is rushing past them. The caption is "Hell, that can't be no combat men. He's lookin' for a fight!". Mauldin remarks on the circumstance in the accompanying text.
True, some few brought their demons home with them, but most o fthem took them there to begin with. They tend to be the ones we hear about.

--lj


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:00 am 
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The old Huey could carry a good sized load.
6 men with full battle load was heavy.
So leave out the troops and their gear, you have lots of capacity for gun and ammo.
Also who's to say that the 'coptes of the Slop universe couldn't lift more. :wink:


(Ramseys rummages around on Mulefoot's desk.... "Here it is: Yep, his artistic license is currant.)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:11 am 
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Yeah, Youze Guys is right, of course. People I know who were actually in combat never wanted to see anything like that ever again.

I should rephrase my point to say that in my ignorance I would think learning to fight and kill on command would be something hard to turn off again. Alternatively, I'd think it might simply break you. I am gratified, and almost worshipful in my attitude toward the combat veterans that I have known, that they were neither brutalized nor broken. Maybe because, as they put it, the big thing wasn't to kill the enemy; the big thing was to take care of your friends.

Because of the setting of this story I've been assuming that whatever happened to Tony Ray to set him on his downhill slide happened while he was in the military. I presume not BECAUSE he was in the military, except incidentally, since joining the military put him at the Scene of the Crime.

But of course we don't know that yet. Perhaps the Scene of the Crime was back before he joined. Perhaps it's why he joined? That seems a bit unlikely, but the possibility is still open. Perhaps Tony Ray did something before he joined up, and the consequences haven't caught him yet.

Or perhaps, at the Scene of the Crime of the story title, Tony Ray was the victim? That seems unlikely too.

On and on I blather. Because, Mulefoot sir, you often write plots that lead us along obvious paths that are a little TOO obvious. And one of Murphy's Laws of Combat is "If the going is easy, it's an ambush."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:40 am 
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Do keep in mind that a person who does a thing that elicits queries into dark deeds might actually have done those deeds. Don't forget that Tony has a clear memory of a crumpled cheerleader associated with the word "tease." I have a feeling that this arc will tie a few things together in Muley's story.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:10 am 
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WOW!!! Here we have a thread in which everyone has so wonderfully and completely commented, that I actually have nothing to add to it except to say...... "Great Job Mulefoot!!!" This page was excellent!!

Thanks!!!

Jadúgara ^_^

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Last edited by Jadugara on Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:03 pm 
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Bell lists the D model at 9499 gross weight, 4939 emoty weight. plus a thou for guns anmd crewmen and 1200 for kerosene. Gonna leave what - maybe a bit under a ton for load, depending how how it is. Compared to the Spooky at a bit over 30,000 gross, or the Spectre at WAY higher, is why the gunships could haul so much more ammo.

Here's a comment from a guy who rode in them:

History looks back at the UH-1D "Slick" and omits the numerous combat roles we were involved in. My ship, UH-1D, serial number 65-19657 was one of two "slicks" assigned to the main "gun company" of the 25th Infantry, 1966, 1967, 1968, and (?) for I left in 1968 after TET. My ship was a "decoy" for the "guns"....they always flew above me and to the rear.....blacked out....and when I drew fire....the other gunner and I "marked" with our doorguns.....climbed...and the "guns" rolled in. We were also the ship that laid the "smoke screen" to cover retreats of our own people....extraction of the dead and wounded (usually by us, for the LZ was too "hot" for the "Dustoffs"....and we flew "People Sniffer" missions, and "Firefly" missions.......all with the intent of drawing fire...so the "guns" on our tail could locate and "neutralize" the enemy......but then.....we were just a "Slick".......all done in a days work.......


Now, that gentleman's simple story certainly makes for some fun mental pictures, doesn't it?

--lj


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:35 pm 
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Okay, looks like Mulefoot isn't in trouble with the law. I haven't been to war myself, so I won't hazzard to guess how it would affect someone's outlook on life.

Pigpatch?

PS: "No T. C.! No T. C.!"

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:32 pm 
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Just because Muley has learned to say 'nope' he doesn't necessarily tell the truth either :)

So, here we meet one of the folks from the old photograph in Muley's wallet: the Fitch. The backstory unfolds.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:50 pm 
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Actually, I find the idea of using a minigun impossible even for an anthro. The same reason it's never been done with a real one by a human in real life.

The typical minigun weighs over 400lbs, and fires with at least a half-ton of kickback, some in excess of 4 tons for heavy vulcans.

Accuracy would dictate he be launched backwards like being hit with a train.

The crap you see on TV aren't even firing blanks, they're specially built stage props, and typically 'fire' with rapid bursts of blown and ignited propane to appear as if they're actually shooting. Others are supported with cables and only fire blanks, as the mass-propulsion is exponentially greater with real bullets.

http://world.guns.ru/machine/minigun-e.htm

A good site to read.


Also, if you'll notice in the comic, it appears he IS using a mount, albeit a flimsy looking one.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:03 pm 
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He is indeed using it on a mount. Miniguns need those. You can see when he's carrying it that its even got the bolt holes for the mount.

I'm not sure about the main part of the gun(on the page) itself weighing 400 pounds though. Scroll on down.

http://www.mindfully.org/Technology/200 ... 3feb06.htm


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:26 am 
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Those are MUCH smaller miniguns than most, though.

Generally anything 7.62 and down are completely useless against anti-air, air-to-air, or even most anti-vehicle situations.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:35 am 
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I don't think there was a lot of air-to-air use of the m134 in Vietnam. For the record, that's what the gun Muley is using is supposed to be, for the most part. I'm not sure how anything larger comes into the picture...or for that matter, operating it strictly hand-held like Jesse Ventura did in the movie Predator. Did I miss something?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:39 am 
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Well.. Mulefoot is using it on it's mount, so recoil isn't an issue...
The gun itself weights about 66 pounds, so Tony could easily carry it.
And the gun was use as an anti-personal weapon.

What's your point?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:12 am 
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Whoa, hit a nerve there, eh?

I wasn't criticizing. I'm just stating that a minigun WOULD need to be mounted for use, and that most miniguns are larger than the AP-designed one Muley's using.

It'd still be three bitches and a whore to carry around, though. =D Thank god for helicopters.



In other news, i'd like to see a GAU-9 'Avenger' somewhere in SLOP, just for shits and giggles.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:17 am 
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Your info-dump on the minigun seemed rather non-sequitour. You didn't hit a nerve. You did, however, get on my nerves. There's an important difference.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:28 am 
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axlegearthylacine wrote:
Whoa, hit a nerve there, eh?


Well,..."nerves" actually... You see,..you kinda started off the commentary on a bad foot by beginning with the phrase.....

axlegearthylacine wrote:
Actually, I find the idea of using a minigun impossible even for an anthro. The same reason it's never been done with a real one by a human in real life.


Because you didn't respond specifically to some other comment (to clarify what you were getting at),...this initial statement (and what followed after) seemed to be broadly calling into question the validity of the artist using this gun in his comic at all,..which just seemed sort of generally "rude", and a little obnoxious, though it seems you may not have meant it that way at all. You just didn't use the best approach to the communication,..and thus seemed to give off a "I-know-it-all-so-I'm-gonna-prove-it" kind of air... That always tends to rile people up immediately, and put them on the defensive... That's all that happened...

Jadúgara ^_^

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:58 am 
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Um, yeah.

I think i'll just go over -> there.


Thanks for reinforcing my experience this is a closed community.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:35 am 
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axlegearthylacine wrote:
Um, yeah.

I think i'll just go over -> there.


Thanks for reinforcing my experience this is a closed community.


Pity. How you feel is how you feel though. Still, you're as welcome as everyone else on who's signed up here on this forum. Feel free to participate more often.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:38 am 
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axlegearthylacine wrote:
Um, yeah.

I think i'll just go over -> there.


Thanks for reinforcing my experience this is a closed community.


I'm sorry you feel that way axlegearthylacine, I truly am... But any members of a forum, like any community, have to be able to let other members of that community (which you are) know when they may do things that touch the edges of offense, even if it was unintentional... This is of benefit to the community AND of the member who's being informed, and is not the community "closing off to you" or shutting you out.

You recognized that your comments had irritated the editor,..and that's good... You may not have realized that they had irritated the author,..and that's O.K. too... Everyone makes mistakes. The best thing to do is to add a little "Hey people, I'm sorry if I made anyone upset..." A little "I'm sorry" goes a long way,..in ANY community...

Here,..let me start... I'm sorry if my explanation of why you had irritated several people with your comments embarrassed or angered you. That wasn't my intent. I just wanted to let you know what had happened, and why. That way, as you continue to interact with others here, you'll have a more enjoyable experience,...which is what we all really want out of this anyway.

Peace...

Jadúgara ^_^

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:27 am 
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axlegearthylacine wrote:
Um, yeah.

I think i'll just go over -> there.


Thanks for reinforcing my experience this is a closed community.


This really is not a closed community. Small yeah. So maybe people here are a little to familiar. The main point is that there are polite ways of expressing what you feel might be an inaccuracy, such as. "Hrm... I like your comic, but if your interested in realism you might want to know that..." and just briefly mention what struck you as out of place. I don' think you meant to come off as rude, but the way you said it kind of came off as "Oh hey! see that comic strip? It's totally wrong, here's how to do it right!" It kind of came off as a tad, blunt is what I think some people are trying to say.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:16 am 
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axlegearthylacine wrote:
In other news, i'd like to see a GAU-9 'Avenger' somewhere in SLOP, just for shits and giggles.


Well the 'Avenger' (GAU-8/A) was designed for the beefier air frame of the A-10 Warthog. And they didn't come together, until '74, very late in the war.

Now the GAU-15/A is a fun little gun. (Ma-Duce to you other oldsters out there.) And gives a nice hefty punch to anything you shoot at.

But you don't get that 'stream of fire' like you do out of the M-134.

And no need to go away, I'll talk guns till the cows come home. :roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:49 pm 
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Okay, clearing up a few things about 'miniguns'.

The Vulcan minigun in Predator weighed about 15 kilos (32 lbs) and while heavy it's light enough to carry around and fire the way Jesse Ventra did in the film. It was a real minigun firing blanks.

Now the ammo and batteries and extra gear a soldier has to carry are a different matter. That all adds weight, so actually carrying the thing into battle isn't really possible. There's just so much extra weight to carry besides the gun that it's all far too heavy.

The propane firing conversion isn't used for film miniguns because the rate of fire is too rapid. Miniguns in films are generally firing blanks.

I imagine the miniguns mounted on gunships in Nam were a helluva lot bigger and heavier and fired a more substantial round, and as far as I know they were generally used to lay down suppressing ground fire, to protect the helicopters while they were vulnerable (ie. hovering, landing, taking off). Single-barrel machine-guns were originally used, but the need to use them excessively led to barrels overheating and cartridge jams. You can hide from people in heavy foliage but it's tough to hide from bullets.

Please don't think I've been to war or that I'm trying to be an expert or anything. The information I've submitted here was googled and corroborated by multiple sources I'm too damn lazy to post links to.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:27 am 
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Uh, Axle, it ain't closed. If you stand Over There you won't be able to participate. You can stand Over Here and just wade right on in.

For what it's worth, the Huey often fitted the M134 'minigun' in the doors, a 7.62mm rotary machinegun. Relative to the ground versions, it normally had its rate of fire inhibited somewhat, to save ammunition. The pig's flash supressor looks a bit different than the original, but one figures his universe may not be the same as ours.
In ours, particularly in Southeast Asia during the Late Unplesantness, the enemy did not use a lot of heavy armor, against which the 7.62 round isn't real effective. Against troops however, it's an excellent means of supression and that's what it was normally used for. Read the comment I copied above from a guy who rode them... they lit the place up with the 134, and then the Cobras rolled in and blew shit out of anything that shot back.
Today, the move is an Apache with a chaingun under the nose, slaved to the guy in front's hat. "Look them dead" sort of a thing. It's frighterningly effective, and fires a big enough round to do damage. Or, as Gen Horner said in an interview, 'For a helicopter to come up behind tanks in three sided revetments is a very good situation."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:33 am 
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axlegearthylacine wrote:
... Thanks for reinforcing my experience this is a closed community.

I spent six months trying to crack a closed-community forum. That forum was a doozy. The moderators would engage in private communications and chats with their coteries which were just echo chambers for their own view points. No one would ever say what was actually on his or her mind, especially when there was something bothering him or her unless it broke some specific rule; instead things were pent up and used to foster resentment. The greatest sin of all was expressing contrary opinions since they were obviously attacks or attempts at wresting control of the forum. All perceived transgressions by newbie individuals were chattered on those private channels until they were verdicts of guilt without any knowledge by the newbie that such a thing was happening. After six months of trying I realized unless I became a genuflecting sycophant I was just wasting my time.

The reason I put up that information is to show what a closed-community board looks like. Axel (who I know from another forum) went from a hunky-dory forumite to declaring this forum closed in a matter of five hours. It takes a less impassioned point of view from a much greater history to make such a statement credible. I don't know if his words were meant to hurt or were a statement of what he truly believed but I will take them at face value. Axle has burned his bridge to the forum. Despite that I do hope he finds what he is looking for.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:14 pm 
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axlegearthylacine wrote:
Whoa, hit a nerve there, eh?


No, that was the sound of you stepping on your own dick.

And
Quote:
Thanks for reinforcing my experience this is a closed community.


Uncle pulls out his clue bat.....

This isn't a "closed community" ... We just have Community standards that do not include some self important peckerhead coming here telling everyone what's wrong. Then throwing a pissy fit when said community doesn't immediately fall down in awe of said individual.

Uncle

Who is really really tired of dealing with children that think they have all the answers to things they've never experienced in real life.

There would probably be a more diplomatic way of stating the above, but I really don't care any more.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:36 am 
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Axlegearthylacine said so little and he's receiving so much back at him. I'm just going to leave well enough alone, try to forget about his reckless introduction, and just wait to see what he says next. Did he intend to offend, and was he really trying to be a smartass? I don't know. Let's just see what he contributes later.

Back to the story. Just a quick question about the Slopverse. Is there any unique technology in Tony Ray's vietnam, and does the geopolitical climate have any interesting variations from the circumstances surrounding our real-world Vietnam war history?

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