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 Post subject: "Ain't I pretty?"
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:27 pm 
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It gave me a shiver actually, the filler posted up for "Scene of the Crime 3." It does make me think about the aesthetics of Slop's critters. What would be considered the norms and ideals of "pretty" in the world and what would be considered good beyond the visual presentation? I Mean, a recurring image of sexiness in my culture is smooth, glistening, wet or oiled skin and tossled but well-groomed, damp hair with an absolutely normal body & face. Once we get to tactile and aromatic sensations it breaks down to personal preferences but they are all variations of firmness here and softness there, musky hither and sweet yon. It's complicated enough with all of the members of the myriad cultures of our own world in spite of the fact that we are all the same species.

What about in Slop? Uthy's obsession with wigs is just a tiny glimpse. Many of the critters seem to have mouths that don't close "properly." The skins of creatures vary greatly in thickness, looseness, pigmentation, and types of growths (hair, fur, scales, warts, etc...). Angular bodies, asymetry of forms, rudeness of features... I could go on. Where is "pretty?" We've already seen some stuff for canines and that which is similar to canids but is that merely Tony's focus, the environment that Tony is moving through?

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 Post subject: Re: "Ain't I pretty?"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:30 am 
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Andrick wrote:
Where is "pretty?" We've already seen some stuff for canines and that which is similar to canids but is that merely Tony's focus, the environment that Tony is moving through?


It's pretty simple actually. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

We've seen lots of different critters so far in the Slop universe. They've all had their distinctions.

As humans, we all have different triggers as to what we want/desire etc.. Some of it is obvious, some of it is buried in our subconscious.

Myself, I prefer "well fed". Others prefer that scrawny bulimic look.

As for that "crazier than a shit house rat" thinking "Ain't I pretty?" I for one certainly wouldn't want to argue with him.

Uncle

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:27 am 
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Wow, more water-colours more often, please Mr. Muley!

Beautiful.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ain't I pretty?"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:42 am 
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Uncle wrote:
It's pretty simple actually. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Aw, shove over, Uncle. I didn't ask for the universal definition but the norms, and platitudes don't count. You might like zaftig women but the cultural norm for beauty is the petite women on the one-grain-of-rice-per-day diet; the voloptuous women of yesteryear have been replaced by the waif-waisted girls of the moment. Thus we are inundated with pop-stars, celebrities, debutantes, and leading ladies because they fit the mold of "pretty."

But what applies in the "Slop-verse?"

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:18 am 
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Meh, Andrick, just because they're selling doesn't mean you have to buy :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: "Ain't I pretty?"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:29 pm 
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Andrick wrote:
Aw, shove over, Uncle. I didn't ask for the universal definition but the norms, and platitudes don't count.


Umm,...I think Uncle made a good point....

The only reason WE, as humans, have "norms" is because we are able to create a current normalized spectrum based on the specific aspects of the human form that the public at large finds "pretty".

To do so in the SLOP Universe would be almost impossible without being able to define that specific normalized spectrum of "pretty" traits for each species (meaning what's currently considered pretty about that species specifically, as judged by their own kind), and by each species (meaning, what does any particular species consider "pretty" for all other species besides their own).

Personally,..if I were one particular SLOP species representative,...I'm not sure I'd even bother trying to learn what all the other species considered "pretty" among (and applied to) their own kind, nor would I want to waste my time convincing them (of other species) what they should consider to be beautiful when looking at my own kind. And, in fact, I'm sure they'd have their own opinions (flavored by their own species' standards) of what makes "my" kind beautiful that might be TOTALLY different from my species' own current standards at any given time.

And as you can imagine, each species would no doubt have VERY different ideas about what makes something "pretty" by their own species' standards....among their own kind... And this would no doubt apply across MANY traits,..including smell and touch....

Uncle's approach may be the best way to go... Unless, in asking for "norms" Andrick, you are willing to go the distance not only of getting the "norms as they apply to all species in SLOP, but ALSO getting the norms in each species' minds as they apply to their opinion of all OTHER species besides themselves (unless you believe they would all agree on what each individual species determined were the traits that they, themselves, should be judged by...)...

Jadúgara ^_^

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:39 pm 
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I can tell you that smell plays a part. *grins*
Really though, the denizens of SLOP are neural nets just like us and there are some generalization you can make about neural nets in that way...

Bigger features create more stimulation of triggers. I'm sure lots of species are inadvertently sexy to each other based on common overlaps such as hips and behavior...and at the same time, some species are just a turn off. Veprs seem to be a turn off for most species.

I'm sure people can figure out what Tony finds attractive.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ain't I pretty?"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:44 pm 
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Jadúgara wrote:
Umm,...I think Uncle made a good point....

And as you can imagine, each species would no doubt have VERY different ideas about what makes something "pretty" by their own species' standards....among their own kind... And this would no doubt apply across MANY traits,..including smell and touch....


And of course, then you have to consider all the various kinks in any society.

Then of course, there's the not so normal....

I love the dead before they're cold
They're bluing flesh for me to hold
Cadaver eyes upon me see nothing
I love the dead before they rise
No farewells, no goodbyes
I never knew your rotting face
While friends and lovers mourn your silly grave
I have other uses for you, Darling
We love the dead
We love the dead, Yeah

Alice Cooper, 1973 from Billion Dollar Babies

Uncle

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:12 am 
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It's pretty simple. We're all animals of instinct. Humans are animals. We're apes. Our preferences are neither more complicated nor more simplified than those of other animals.

Our preferences are based on instinct. Instinct guides us to seek the strongest, healthiest mate. Sure, there are exceptions, but the norm is that we seek traits inherent to our survival as a species.

Just compare dominant traits animals in our mundane world look for in a mate, and apply those traits to the same Slopverse species. A tall beefy boar with big tusks would probably be very desirable for a sow, and a small underfed boar with puny tusks would have to take what he could get.

Of course, it would be a little more complicated than that, but it would probably work for a general guideline. Now how 'modern civivilization' would affect those tastes, and what fetishes we might find the Slopverse denizens developing would be another matter of conjecture entirely.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:01 am 
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Mulefoot wrote:
I can tell you that smell plays a part. *grins*
Really though, the denizens of SLOP are neural nets just like us and there are some generalization you can make about neural nets in that way...

Bigger features create more stimulation of triggers. I'm sure lots of species are inadvertently sexy to each other based on common overlaps such as hips and behavior...and at the same time, some species are just a turn off. Veprs seem to be a turn off for most species.

I'm sure people can figure out what Tony finds attractive.


*hides*


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:54 am 
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Yay! Drooly hyena! *grins goofily at his picture*

I have to agree with the statement that different things would turn on different species in the Slopverse. Smell, fur texture, size, and even general body structure would play into it. However, since the characters are anthros, I'm sure certain human elements would also play a factor in determining 'prettiness', such as boobs and personality.

Now as to whether or not Scotchy would be considered attractive...heh, I guess beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:43 am 
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Actually, the only thing I've ever found in the eye of the beholder is vitreous. :P Again, I am frustrated by my inability to convey my thoughts. I'll try again.

From reading Slop we cannot deny that there are many, many species that intermingle in the shown communities. They share a common language, they have a common history, interact within a common culture, have common tastes and desires, and the world is replete with these things in items and ideas displayed in the comic. That means there are common shared values. You can grab any one person out of that community and he could tell you those values without giving it much thought, he may not agree with them, but he knows them because he is a part of that community. The majority views (not to be confused with the majority's views) seep through a culture and affect those values accordingly.

Getting back to the point, Slop does seem to have a norm for beauty. Tony said it best when he was browsing porn. Vepr's seem to be considered the least pretty, or at least Tony believes so. Just about every porno title had some canine in it... or were those categories? It seems that canids, and those who are similar to canids, are the most closely associated with "pretty." I guess that means you're in, Scotch.

But then again it might just be Tony's focus on the world, and his narrative colors the world and his desires for canids distorts our perceptions.

I hope I'm clearer this time around. If not, I'm just givin' up.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:10 am 
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Andrick wrote:
I hope I'm clearer this time around. If not, I'm just givin' up.


Heh,..don't give up Andrick,..this is a great discussion,..and I'm enjoying hearing all the opinions and beliefs...

In fact,...based on what Mulefoot said,..I'm betting that it's a mixture of both your beliefs as well as those of Uncle and me... Each animal species will no doubt have their own individual standards, mixed with certain societal "trends" ("I like big butts and I cannot lie",...as well as stuff like "smooth and blending fur coloration and pigmentation is 'prettier' that being shabby and mottled looking",...etc...), plus whatever other kinks might be pervasive...

All of this is combined to create a wide and diverse mixture of "pretty" definitions, some applied on an individual basis, and others applied more generally to all...

And it's really great that one cool little piece of art has inspired such excellent discourse!

Jadúgara ^_^

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:24 am 
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It's been pointed out that the geographical area in which Mulefoot resides and conducts his business is largely populated by canid types. So, what sortsa pornos do you suppose they're gonna be stocking at the local 'book store'? They're gonna stock most of their stuff according to the peak demagraphic, and in this case the very broad demagraphic is canids.

A twisted concept occurred to me. Does anyone suppose, that in a culture in which eating sentients has become outlawed, that the predators could develop sexual fetishes for their particular prey species? Instinct tells them they should be pursuing certain types of critters, but what if the instinct crosses wires with their libido? That'd be pretty interesting fodder for stories right there.

Imagine a wolf cruising the bar scene and drooling over bunny babes!

Or perhaps a burly lion lusting over the graceful curves of gazelles.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:25 pm 
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Abraxus wrote:
A twisted concept occurred to me. Does anyone suppose, that in a culture in which eating sentients has become outlawed, that the predators could develop sexual fetishes for their particular prey species? Instinct tells them they should be pursuing certain types of critters, but what if the instinct crosses wires with their libido? That'd be pretty interesting fodder for stories right there.

Imagine a wolf cruising the bar scene and drooling over bunny babes!

Or perhaps a burly lion lusting over the graceful curves of gazelles.


It seems like we already saw a little evidence of that in the antics of Brice's fox father and his sheep secretary...

To me,..your theory/concept makes a lot of sense...

Jadúgara ^_^

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:59 pm 
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Andrick wrote:
Getting back to the point, Slop does seem to have a norm for beauty. Tony said it best when he was browsing porn. Vepr's seem to be considered the least pretty, or at least Tony believes so. Just about every porno title had some canine in it... or were those categories? It seems that canids, and those who are similar to canids, are the most closely associated with "pretty."


First off Andrick, don't take this reply to mean I'm targeting you.

It should be apparent by now, that the Slop universe VERY closely parallels our own. If you look at the demographics of our own universe, that here in the United States, (until recently) it was pretty much caucasion. And although, there were "others" the media was still pretty much geared towards the "norm" (in this case caucasion.)

And that the species distinctions have similiar parallels. Mosty canine equals mostly caucasion. Coyana equals hispanic (until recently viewed as a subset of caucasion.) Tony Ray, is the slop equivalent of negro. (And yes, I'm using the old terms) I'm not sure where Harle and Fel fall into our system. And there's the crows that I will assume to be jewish for no other reason than diversity. And I'm waiting to see what Mulefoot has in store for us as to what species the orientals translate into.

Back onto "pretty" look at the Miss America pagents. Only recently has it moved from an all white northern european stock. And again, until recently, to be colored and pretty, you needed to be "high yeller" (i.e some mixed white blood), like Billie Holliday, certainly not looking like Whoopie Goldberg.

http://www.sonymusic.com/artists/UltimateGrammyBox/gfx/Photos/holliday.jpg

http://www.achievement.org/achievers/gol0/large/gol0-024.jpg

And again, non-whites.... In our culture (historically) have had an air of exotic but only if they sort of looked white. Slender, Chinese women as opposed to flat faced Koreans. Indian maidens that looked like suntanned caucasions, certainly not if they looked anything like Chief Sitting Bull. (heh, cousin of yours Ramseys?)

Enough rambling, I think you get the point here. And no, I don't mean this to be an American Racist essay, but, well, I guess it looks that way too.

Uncle

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:15 pm 
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Uncle wrote:
And no, I don't mean this to be an American Racist essay, but, well, I guess it looks that way too.Uncle


Eh. It's good to wake people up every once in a while. Some people have racist predispositions (Passive-racist, not active-racist), and don't even know it. Every once in a while it's good to see something like this for the purpose of personal introspection.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:40 pm 
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Abraxus wrote:
Some people have racist predispositions (Passive-racist, not active-racist), and don't even know it.


It's what I call institutionalized racism.

As a modest example, Scientific American, a respectable magazine had an article in August 1968 that, and I quote, asked the question "Why do Negroes riot?" and as part of the article, started with several preconceived notions, then surmised, "The results were contrary to general beliefs about rioters."

Another example would be a rather well known civil rights advocacy group who primarily seems to believe that certain groups of people are too stupid to care for themselves.

While taking a middle management course (I used to work in the aerospace industry) one section of the course centered around discrimination in the work place. Much to others discomfort, I pointed out I would much rather deal with an openly racist supervisor in that I would know exactly where I stood. Rather than have to wonder why my career was on hold.

Uncle

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:51 pm 
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Ah yes, "sensitivity training" and other instructions that sweep unwanted things under the rug. It's a pretty rug. Look at that rug. What, no, don't lift it! Oh, those horrible things! *sweep* *sweep* *sweep* It's their fault. If some of them are this way then they must all be this way and they all must be swept under this rug. It's all their fault that they can't stay hidden under this rug! The rug must be thicker and heavier until one day no one can lift the rug. *looks at the soapbox under his feet. Gets down*

Well, color me satisfied with the turn of the conversation.

Though I agree with the parallels I think there are too many variations to clearly divine the species in Slop with the hopelessly intermingled genetic ethnicities of our own world.

Are the Coyano a species unto themselves or are they transplants like the "white" hispanics and there are divisions between the colonizers and the colonized? Uh, strike that last one. According to the Slopedia the Coyano are mixed bloods, what were called "Mestizos" under the old caste system and a term still used today. There had to have been an indigenous canid for the wolven conquerors to beget the Coyano...

Gah, the fever is getting the better of me. I'll come back to complete this thought when my cold lets up.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:35 am 
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There isn't a perfect match...in terms of species to human races and ethnicities. There's not meant to be. There's just a bit of shorthand in my own mind.

And Uncle is quite right about the crows. :)


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